Title Author Date

Rebutting the blatantly empty discourse Rossow, Amiel Jun 30, 2004

Mr Tremblay wrote in his latest reply to my letter:

"Well, I've said all I had to say on your idea that premises cannot be logical or illogical. I don't think it makes any good sense whatsoever,
since premises can be coherent or incoherent just as any other proposition."

I can only repeat that logic itself cannot vouch for a premise. Our conclusion regarding the truth of a premise comes not from logic but either from faith or from empirical evidence. In many situations we simply agree to
accept a premise for the sake of discussion leaving out the question of its being true or false. We say, "IF this premise is true, then…. Etc." The further steps of the discourse must follow the rules of logic. A premise itself is a postulate chosen regardless of considerations of logic.

You wrote further: "As I pointed out, the proposition 'something can come from nothing' breaks the law of non-contradiction. You did reply though, saying that it does not
contradict in the context of quantum physics. I don't know what you mean here, but I presume you are talking about the production of particles in a zero-energy space."

I did not say that there is no contradiction only in the context of quantum physics. It was just an example. I maintain that the statement "something can come out of nothing" contains no contradiction in any sense, regardless of quantum physics. Quantum physics just provides an example. If there is
(or may be) empirical evidence of something coming out of nothing, this simply would say something about the statement in question being true or false but it hardly will add much to the fact that it is not contradictory. Indeed, can you point out to a statement which it contradicts? I don't think so.

[continued]

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Rebutting the blatantly empty discourse Rossow, Amiel Jun 30, 2004

[continued]

You wrote further:
"But in the proposition 'something can come from nothing', 'nothing' is a metaphysical state of absence of any potentiality whatsoever, which is obviously not what we have in quantum physics. Therefore such a rebuttal
does not address the point. Quantum physics does not say that 'something can come from nothing' in a metaphysical sense."

What you do here, you implicitly include into the term "nothing" an inherent lack of capability to produce something thus making the premise in question untrue by definition. On the other hand, it converts the statement 'nothing can come out of nothing' into an empty tautology. However, there is no
requirement to antecedently interpret the term "nothing" as inherently incapable of producing something. If we do not antecedently attribute to "nothing" incapability of producing something, our premise is not inherently contradictory. For example, empirical evidence for something produced from
nothing would negate your interpretation, and since there is no reason to deny the possibility of such empirical evidence, there is no reason to view "nothing" as metaphysical "nothing" void of any potentiality. If you antecedently define "no nothing" as incapable of producing something, you compromise the integrity of your discourse by implicitly including into the premise the putative conclusion of any further logical discourse.

Best wishes,

Amiel Rossow

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Rebutting the blatantly empty discourse Tremblay, Francois Jul 04, 2004

"What you do here, you implicitly include into the term "nothing" an inherent lack of capability to produce something thus making the premise in question untrue by definition."

Unless we are using a different language here, it is not an inclusion but a definition. That is what "nothing" means. A state of nothingness implies the total absence of both potentiality and actuality. Otherwise there is "something".

"On the other hand, it converts the statement 'nothing can come out of nothing' into an empty tautology."

It is certainly not "empty" since its truth-value disproves the opposite proposition, "something can come out of nothing".

"For example, empirical evidence for something produced from nothing would negate your interpretation"

Empirical evidence for the illogical ? I don't think you understand that accepting empirical evidence implies the acceptance of logic. Otherwise the empirical evidence could not be assembled in coherent parts.

"If you antecedently define "no nothing" as incapable of producing something, you compromise the integrity of your discourse by implicitly including into the premise the putative conclusion of any further logical discourse."

Just cut the long words and simply say I am begging the question. Geesh. And no, I am not begging the question, I am simply pointing out that "something can come out of nothing" is illogical, given the meaning of each.

Francois Tremblay

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Rebutting the blatantly empty discourse Rossow, Amiel Jul 04, 2004

Dear Francois:

You wrote: "Unless we are using a different language here, it is not an inclusion but
a definition. That is what 'nothing' means. A state of nothingness implies the total absence of both potentiality and actuality. Otherwise there is 'something'."

I think 'inclusion' and 'definition' are not
mutually exclusive notions; you cannot say something is not an inclusion but a definition as an inclusion can very well be a part of a definition. If a statement is a definition it does not prevent if from containing (or not
containing) an inclusion of some subordinate notion. What I meant was that you have included a certain notion into your definition, a notion which was not inherent in your definition - the latter could have been adopted without that additional notion. You suggest efining "nothing" as including absence of any potentiality. It is not the only possible choice. I am sure that you are perfectly
able to choose a definition of "nothing" which does not include the absolute absence of any potentiality. A definition is after all a matter of choice.

You also wrote:

"It is certainly not 'empty' since its truth-value disproves the opposite roposition, 'something can come out of nothing'." It is a tautology because, if your definition is adopted (which includes the
notion of absence of any potentiality) it makes your statement true by definition and therefore adding nothing to what has already been included
into the definition. A tautology is empty in that it simply reiterates the premise.

Finally you wrote:
"Just cut the long words and simply say I am begging the question. Geesh. And no, I am not begging the question, I am simply pointing out that 'something can come out of nothing' is illogical, given the meaning of each."

I suspect that if one measures the frequency of "long words" (or, rather of fancy terms) in your writing and in my comments to them, the result is far from being clear-cut. As to the essence of that passage, you simply repeat
the same statement I commented to originally. The "meaning of each" is a matter of definition, and, as I said before, you include into your definition of "nothing" the notion of an absolute absence of any potentiality which is not necessarily inherent in the term "nothing" and may legitimately be not included.

I am sure you see that we are going in circles, so, imo, a continuation of this exchange of opinions is hardly justified - you repeat the same notions and I reply with variations of the same counter-notions. So, I suggest that
we agree to disagree and stop at that. Recall that I only made one critical comment regarding your article and like it otherwise, so you should not get angry, not to mention condescending and rude.

Best wishes.

Amiel

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Rebutting the blatantly empty discourse Tremblay, Francois Jul 19, 2004

I don't mean to be rude, but I am not the one who started repeating himself. You keep arguing that I went out of my way to make a logical rebuttal to Craig by changing the definition of "nothing". Unless you can point to a definition of "nothing" which is better adapted to the context of our metaphysical discussion, and which does not include absence of potentiality, then you might have a case. Otherwise, there is no point in this discussion.

In either case, thank you for the letter and interest.

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